Kristoffer Ӎar: Four years ago, REI MON "RAMBO" M. GURAN borrowed a DVD from me. He never returned it. Ambo was murdered on the bus that was to take him to school; he was shot four times, twice in the head, by two unidentified gunmen. Easy prey: he was an activist.
Kristoffer Ӎar: Justice, as in the hundreds of similar cases, is still unserved. And it could continue to be so, with Pres. Aquino in denial: "We cannot say that these abuses are a policy of the state. Many of these are due to personal feud." Please be assured, Mr. President, I wouldn't murder for a lost DVD.
Sean Velchez: habo ko man i like ta morbid masyado.. kaya igdi na lang sa comment box. whew apat na taon na palan na wara sina ambo at si cris sa mga martsa...
Kristoffer Ӎar: eu baga.and yet..
Coleen Robbie: Sorry to hear that, Tope. :-(
Renante Nate: to hell with that DVD. He was an activist. That was it. He was just a pawn in the middle of battlefield between never-ending ideologies.
Kristoffer Ӎar : there's a battlefield all right, and it's fought with words and/or swords. ambo fought with words only. sure he took sides, but he wasn't a pawn - his was an informed choice. what's barbaric is when sword-bearers (of either side) make no di...stinctions between combatants and non-. then all hell breaks loose.
@coleen: thanks.
Renante Nate: This is not a royal war. There is no clear distinction between combatants and non-combatants, sword or pen bearer. Those who participate in this game, be it influencer, logistics provider, propagandists, spies are all bound to this dismal f...ate. Include in the list media, local politics and handlers, activists, businessmen who are supporting, and immediate relatives.
Mag-ingat na lang.
Kristoffer Ӎar: there's actually a yardstick, it's buried in some vault somewhere in geneva. tama, rules are ignored most of the time. but this must be stopped. it would be brazen to lump together all shades of supporters (on either side) - after all, there's a great deal of difference b/w a sympathizer and a partisan. also, whatever happened to the other standard:"beyond reasonable doubt"?
Sean Velchez: mr. nante so anu ang punto mo? na kasalanan pa ni ambo ang pagkakapatay nya?
Renante Nate: my points are:
1) To be killed is part and parcel of being an activist. Hindi rin masasabing kasalanan ng sundalo kung mamatay siya sa giyera.Likewise, di rin kasalanan ng aktibista kung mamatay sa pakikibaka.
2) Just like pieces in chess gam...e, frontliners can be used on both advantage. Both exist because of the other.
3) Limited sympathy from people.
Sean Velchez: polemical points. obviously you're biased against activists and or the movement. can do nothing about that. i rest my case. isa lang ha.mali ang depinisyon mo ng aktibista. hindi sila kasali sa armadong tunggalian. contrary to your assertion, there is a clear line that devides combatants from non-combatants. those who dilute that clear demarcation are the hawkish evil state security forces like palparan who justify killing activists in the name of anti-insurgency. at sa mga sinasabi mo mr. nante qualified ka na sa palparan club.
Renante Nate: Well, so be it. If you qualify me prematurely to Palparan club, then what moral courage do you still have to gain sympathy from people? How can you invite discussion if you are already asking " whose side are you on?"
It appears from your implied definition that activists are not "armed". I dont agree with your definition. They are armed NOT with guns but influence to incite others to use guns. They may use pen that is mighter than the sword or its poisonous tongue (James 3:8)
Renante Nate: Our "movement" (so to speak) is to have a united community of our own. We are nation of God's people amidst a nation of men. We do not entangle ourselves much on the affairs of this world. We find peace within us wherever and whatever ruling state governance we are in.
We just serve as light of this world.
Kristoffer Ӎar: btw renante, nice making tambay here. long, long time no see. anyway, let's hope that when we use the term "armed activist", we are clear that the intent is metaphorical. otherwise, the killings continue. activists do not incite people to u...se guns. (not a new idea, this one. no less than the constitution guarantees the people's right to revolt, if it's their sovereign will.) it's ok, there still can be discussions even if it's clear the participants belong to this or that side; no thinking person could claim a tabula rasa anyway. i'm sorry i cannot follow the leap from the secular to the divine.
Sean Velchez: wag kang tumakbo sa relihiyon mo para makaiwas sa debate. at wag mong ikukumpara ang relihiyon mo sa kilusan. milya milya ang layo im telling you. kung ikaw din lang ang natitirang tao sa mundo na kailangang i organisa at mulatin, wag na. m...ag lalie low na lang ako. it didnt occured to me even once to beg for your symphaty.because simulat sapul pa antagonistic ka naman talaga sa anumang gawaing politikal lalo pa radikal.
nakakalungkot lang na nagbigay ka pa ng sitas ng bibliya para i justify ang murder ng isang aktibista. reminds me on how even the devil was able to qoute the scripture.
wag ka nang mag astang nasa gitna dahil kitang kita naman kung saan ka nakakiling. premature? e hinog na hinog ka na nga sa mga linya ni palparan eh. ganyan na ganyan ang sinabi nya kina karen empeno at sherlyn cadapan; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBhAkfnoZOE
and please lang paki review ang lohika ng slaitang armed, wag kang mag dedelve sa mga malalalim na depinisyon, kasi alam kong alam mo na ang tinutukoy kong armed ay literal na nag aarmas. hindi yung kung anu anung hustipikasyon mo.
james 2:26 faith without work is dead.
Verses 15 and 16: " If a brother or sister be naked and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?"
parang ikaw, sa harap ng suliraning kinakaharap ng iyong mga maliliit na kapwa nag kakasya lang na sumamba at magbasa ng pasugo.atleast si ambo sinundan si kristo.. nakipamuhay sa mga magsasaka, sa mga mangingisdang biktima ng mapaminsalang pagmimina, nakimartsa sa mga kabataang inaagawan ng karapatan sa edukasyon. and yes sige na ibabalato ko na sayo. armado sya! armado sya nang nagaapoy na pag ibig sa kapwa at sa bayan.
at dahil dun pinatay sya. at ikaw na nagpapakilalang kristayno, ni hindi naninibugho sa pagkakamatay nya? whew .
Renante Nate : Hindi naman po ako umiiwas sa debate. In fact, I stated my three points you were asking. Unfortunately, you did not raise your contentions on any of those three. You turned to semantics. In a debate, you do not say "mali ang definition mo" You clarify the terms because each of us has own definition and you should deal with it.
Paano ka naman nakapagsabi na "I am justifying a murder"? Basahin mo nga ng paulit-ulit ang mga sinulat ko dito. Paano naman makapagjustify ang James 3:8 sa isang murder?
In a debate, ad hominem attack is a big offense. What do you want to achieve in qualifying me to PALPARAN CLUB? Does it support any of your points here? Or you just want to accuse a person and include me among your enemies?
You should read again the Geneva Convention and review the definition of a combatant. It doesnt exclusively defines it as those who are carrying guns. A combatant is someone who takes a direct part in the hostilities of an armed conflict. If you get caught in a company of those armed men, what humanitarian part you think you have with them? That also includes spies, civilians prepared for an impending battle. Kailangan ko pa bang banggitin ang pangalan ng schoolmate namin ni TOPE na nahuling kasama nila?
Paano ka naman nakapagsabi na "umaasta kami sa gitna"? We do not support any of you two. Dahil hindi yan buhay ng Kristiyano na makipagbaka ukol lamang sa buhay na ito. Kaya nga meron kaming sariling pamamaraan na minamaliit nyo naman. Bakit ano naman ang tingin nyo sa relihiyon?
On a political point of view, ours is like creating a community of our own. We have our own judicial system, there is a membership and unmembership procedure. We call ourselves as KAPATID. Only then you can apply that verse you are citing James 2:15-16. We educate ourselves. None a single member of our community cannot read and write and avail of services of the government. Bawal sa amin ang tamad. Nasa last page ng dictionary namin ang salitang "reklamo".
Kung kayo armado ng pag-ibig sa kapwa at sa bayan, kami higit na armado ng pag-iisip ni Cristo (1 Pt 4:1). Ang pagkakaiba nga lang, kami hindi naniniwala na mapapabuti pa ang mundo. Kayo naman, patuloy na umaasa na mababago nyo ang takbo ng mundo. Ika nga ng bible,
"If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable." (1 Cor 15:19). Hindi kami miserable.
Bakit naman ako "maninibugho" sa pagkamatay niya? Wala ako makita sa bibliya na kinainggitan ang pagkamatay ng mga nasa labas.
Ang hindi ko naman maintindihan sa inyo kung ano ang ikinasasama nyo sa akin. Si Tope na rin nagbigay ng hinuha na napatay ang kasamahan nyo na aktibista at hindi dahil sa paghihiram ng DVD. I just picked the plausible answer.
Kristoffer Ӎar: i think it's fairly well established that our schoolmate was actually a combatant, by geneva definitions. if i remember right, ang complaint ng pamilya nya ay she was hors de combat, and there' something in the conventions that protects them. pero ambo was not a combatant. he was a student, for god's sake. if anybody had a beef against him, they should have gone to court, or to school authorities even.
Renante Nate: I also took CAT and ROTC when I was student.
Sean Velchez : may sarling justice system? weird, one of your "kapatid" had his stint as justice secretary back when erap was at the helm. sige na relihiyon mo na ang magaling at maganda. yung kristo na ninyo ang mahusay.at oo kayo na, kayo kayo lang ang ...malinis at ligtas.
Idinidiin mo na combatant si ambo.You absolve his murderers by qualifying ambo as a combatant. kasi alam mo.. wala kaming ingay kung mapapatay si ambo kung talagang combatant sya o kabahagi sya sa armadong labanan. pero hindi eh, hindi sya kabahagi ng armadong labanan so why are you insisting on your wrong notion. isinasalampak kita kasama ni palparan kasi yan mismo ang sinasabi nya.
Alam mo hanggat hindi bumaba si kristo sa lupa at tumira sa sentral ninyo, ang absoluto mong pag ka panatiko sa relihiyon mo ay mananatiling subjective at relativo. at may gana ka pang angkinin ang bibliya at ang sitas nito? akala ko ba sumusunod ka sa obhetibong pakikipag debate.
sabi nga ni dato arroyo: "kebs ko" sa panatisismo mo sa relihiyon mo. ang usapin dito si ambo pinatay. politikal ang motobasyon at inosente sya. kung kaya mong sikmurahin yun dahil sa una hindi mo sya kamananampalataya, at pangalawa liko liko ang depinsiyon mo ng kumbatant. nasa sayo na yun. pero ako sasagutin kita at hindi kita uurungan sa mga kalikuan mong ipinapangalat. tungkulin ko yun bilang kristyano at bilang isang kaibigan ni ambo.
Kristoffer Ӎar: good thing rotc cadets are not considered combatants, despite the obvious far-right orientation
Renante Nate : May sarili kaming justice system (Matt 18:15-17). For your info, kami lang ang nakakasunod sa utos na yan. Pero hanggang expulsion lang kami (1 Cor 5:13). At kami din lang ang nakasusunod dyan. Hindi naman kasi kami katulad ng ibang samahan na lifetime membership and death and execution are the only unmembership procedure left especially for erring members.
May binabanggit ba ako dito na combatant ang ambo na iyon na di ko naman kilala? Ano naman ang karapatan kong magdeklara kung combatant siya o hindi? Ang hirap sa inyo, you put words on other's mouth. This happens to those blinded by hatred.
Hindi mo ba naiintindihan ang point ko? THIS IS NOT A ROYAL WAR. There is no distinction between combatants and non-combatants. Isama nyo na dyan ang mga sinusunog na mga Cellsites at mga lupang pag-aari na pinakikialaman. Tope already said that "Rules are ignored most of the time" that must be stopped. Kung tanggap nyo ang nakalulungkot na katotohanang ito ay tatanggapin nyo ang first point ko na "To be killed is part and parcel of being an activist". Ang hirap naman sa inyo, you are branding and labelling persons that do not conform with you. Pagkatapos, isasali sa kalaban nyo. That's FALSE DICHOTOMY.
Basing on Geneva definition, AN ACTIVIST CAN QUALIFY TO BE A COMBATANT. Binigay ko ngang example ang schoolmate namin ni TOPE. As activists, you MAY OPT NOT to be a combatant, but you CAN be a combatant. I hope you get the point.
Kung sinasabi nyo na aktibista LANG siya at hindi combatant, I DO NOT AGREE with you. Kung sasabihin nyo namang aktibista siya na hindi combatant, I may agree with you. SANA gets nyo ang pagkakaiba.
If you keep on saying that your friend is not an combatant, then tell it to the marines. Malay ko.
Your defenses are weak. The probable cause is there. Bakit nyo pa babanggitin na naging aktibista siya?
Tope, my point is: It's weak to reason out that your friend was NOT a combatant because he was a student. Ganun ba ang ibig mong sabihin? Di ko connect.
Kristoffer Ӎar: di naman, he wasn't a combatant by geneva definitions. or in your words, aktibista na hindi combatant. our schoolmate and ambo are very different cases. i'll even grant that the point of ambo's being a combatant or not is arguable. pero that's exactly the problem: the lack of argumentation. he wasn't allowed to defend himself in open court (or even in a military tribunal, kung yun ang gusto). it was an extrajudicial killing.
Renante Nate: Well, wala na ko masasabi ukol dyan. Pero kung personal na karanasan din lang naman ang pag-uusapan, sanay kahit kapirasong lupa ng 9 hectares na lupa ng aking mga ninuno ang masaka namin sana kung di nakikialam ang mga nasa bundok. Extrajudicial arrangement din.
Kristoffer Ӎar: ok. wala din akong masasabi tungkol jan. dai ko maiconnect kay ambo.
Sean Velchez : bitterka pala kaya ka nagkakaganyan. well wala na rin kaming magagawa dyan. umiilaw ung anti-left blinker sa noo mo oh. sa mga sinasabi mo pa lang at mga insinuwasyon mo kita kita ang bias mo against the left. nakakahiya. trying to be objec...tive pero di mapigilan ang sarili na kumiling sa kanan.
wala akong laban kung patuloy kang mag koqoute ng bibliya. for all you know hindi ako naniniwala sa bibliya. mas mahina ang defense mo kung panatisismo ang ipagduduldulan mo sa usaping ito.
Wala ka na ba talagang konsepto ng hustisya at karapatang pantao? kasi kahit sino magagalit sa pamamaslang. ikaw hindi eh, nakikipalakpak ka pa. kahit anung sabihin mo dahil sa palpak mong definition ng kumbatant at ng aktibista binibigyan mong ng katwiran ang pamamaslang, kasama na ang pag paslang kay ambo. epal ka pala eh, hindi mo pala sya kilala pero para bagang kung mangatwiran ka ukol sa pagpatay sa kanya.. katonong katono mo si palparan.besides bat naman kami ang bibigyan ng burden to tell something to the marines. ikaw na lang kakampi mo naman sila. hehehe
sinabi ko na nung last post ko diba.. OO na nga. kayo na nga lang ang mahusay at magaling. kayo nga ang tanging kawan diba. kayo lang ang maliligtas at hinirang. wala na ako dun. kaya wag mo nang i impose pa samin ang relihiyon mo kasi nagbabasa naman ako ng pasugo. baka awitan pa kita ng doxolohiya jan eh. besides usapin ito ng human rights at extra judicial killings. sa human rights diba sabi mo hindi naman kayo nakikisawsaw. sabi mo pa keber nyo sa pagkamatay ng mga taga"labas".
sa extrajudicial naman, ayaw mo din kasi keber mo din sa judicial at extra judicial "we have our own justice system" dagdag mo pa. e para san pa at nakikipag debate pa. ikaw na mismo ang nag patalo sa sarili mo. putting words into peoples mouth daw. ...
isa pa ha. wag mo ipagkakalito ang aktibista at kombatant utang na loob! sa pilipinas pag aktibista ka, hindi ka kombatant. kasi ang tawag sa kombatant gerilya, nakabasa ka na ba ng npa na tinawag na activists? kaya nga activist eh... active in the system. iniengage pa yung systema. nag babalangkas pa ng reform. yung mga gerilya. inooverthrow na ang system sa pamamaraan ng armed combat. kaya combatant. kasi base sa mga palipad hangin mo, pati yung mga myembro ng save the dolphins at world wide fund eh pwedeng paputukin na lang ang bungo because activist sila.
base sa thread ng usapang ito sinusumada ko ang tindig mo:
Sa usaping pagpatay kay ambo at sa iba pang pambansa-demokratikong aktibista, walang may kasalanan. pinili ni ambo ang maging aktibista at marapat lamang na patayin sya ng militar dahil "baka" hindi lang sya simpelng aktibista, besides hindi naman sya iglesia ni cristo kaya keber.
lahat ng nakikipag laban para sa interes ng mahihirap, para sa womens rights, para sa environmental protection, kahit red cross volunteers, mga kasapi ng UN at kahit na sinong gusto lang eh mas mabuting mundo para sa buong humanity at iba pang nilalang ay pwedeng patayin nalamang dahil" baka hindi lang sialng ordinaryong aktibista" who knows. its called dichotomoy. besides mga tanga sila to dream for a better world. sabi sa pasugo. gugunawin ang mundo kaya why make it a better world pa diba. besides ulit. hindi naman sila members ng iglesia.. mga "taga-labas" kaya keber ulit.
Renante Nate :
TO YOU MR/MS VELCHEZ,
At least malinaw na hindi ka nga naniniwala sa bible. So be it.
But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. (1 Cor 14:38)
...The word "activism" is used synonymously with protest or dissent, but activism can stem from any number of political orientations and take a wide range of forms from writing letters to newspapers or politicians, political campaigning, economic activism such as boycotts or preferentially patronizing businesses, rallies, street marches, strikes, both work stoppages and hunger strikes, or even GUERILLA TACTICS. (WIKIPEDIA, Uppercase mine)
Siguro ikaw na lang TOPE ang sumagot, iyong schoolmate ba natin guerilla na maituturing o aktibista? Baka mali ang dinig ko sa balita. Kelan pa siya naging ganoon? Ang aktibista ba nagiging guerilla or vice versa or both? Paano naman malalaman?
Naalala mo ba noong High School sa Padunungan sa AMEC BCCM? Iyong lecture ba ng UP ****** bago ang contest ay lecture ng aktibista? Paano kung ang nasabing lecture ay de-baril na ang audience? Aktibista pa ba ang turing?
There are many legitimate social organizations but they dont fit in the above definitions. Pero may alam ako na kabilang sa mga ito na front lang para itago ang tunay nilang kulay. Grado-grado lang naman yan ika nga. You cannot just overthrow a government without distributing your people in all walks of life.
Kristoffer Ӎar: ah. our schoolmate was a guerilla. personally, i believe this fact was established kaito pa. iyo, rumdom ko ang lecture. garo rumdom ko man pati kung sisay itong nag-lecture. i knew him personally sa diliman. sa obserbasyon ko, bako sya aktibista (garo ngani mas aktibista pa ako, sa palagay ko lng). kung tama pa ang pagkarumdom ko, the lecture was about nationalization of industries. that's not a very leftie issue to me, though mga aktibista lng ang ngbabanggit kaini usually.
Sean Velchez :
ayan na mas tumingkad na ang blinker mo sa noo mr/ms nante.nag effort ka talaga sa wikipedia. yung school mate nyo wag mo nang idamay kasi labas naman sya s ausapan. patay na nga eh. yung pinupunto natin dito yung bali baliko mong argumento... at depinisyon plus yung kawalan mo nang konsepto ng tama, wasto at naayon, isama na natin yung kawala mo ng konsepto ng simpatya sa biktima. plus syempre yung mas matingkad mong paggamit ng relihiyon to justofy the killings. hindi yung lecture yung magbabago ng depinisyon kundi yung usapin kung may baril at walang baril. pag walang baril di yun kombatant. pag may baril na kumbatant na.
glaring na ang pagka anti-left mo gusto mo magsulat ka pa ng diagram ng mga ccp-npa-ndf front organization. meron nun sa afp website at sa blog nina palparan at alcover. lagyan mo din ng sitas ng bibliya para may spiritual justification.
ikaw ang ignorante dahil inilalako mo ay barbarikong konsepto na pagpaslang kahit inosente dahil lamang" baka hindi lang sya aktibista". sa puntong ito mlainaw na nakikiapid ka kina palparan et al. ewww
Renante Nate :
So TOPE, if she was a guerilla, then she was not once an activist. Tama? So let everyone know.
You mean, "him"? Parang iba yata tayo ng lecturer. Kasama sa naglecture sa amin iyong pretty schoolmate din natin na two years ahead sa akin. You ...know her? Siguro sa inyo nationalization of industries, sa amin naman ay anti-privatization. You remember how we make fun pronouncing "Bourgeoisie". We were overlooking an "imperial land of Legazpi City" at the same time we discuss imperialism.
But you still dont answer the question. What if those lectures were taught in gun-carrying youths? Was it still an activism?
Kristoffer Ӎar: she was once an activist all right. and if this is what you're driving at: yes, some activists are known to take up arms, and they become guerillas (or terrorists, depends on your vantage point). there's no denying that. pwedeng magkaiba kitang lecturer,we were divided into several groups.
Renante Nate: Well, I believe, I have delivered my points with all honesty,tactfulness and wisdom. If you dont mind, I make a copy of this entire exchange of thoughts for future reference.
Thanks.
Kristoffer Ӎar: no problem. this is public domain naman.
Renante Nate: But this is not seachable by any engine. I intend to post this in a blog.
Kristoffer Ӎar oh. i give my consent. im counting on your honesty, tact, and wisdom naman. also, the other "characters" must also give their consent, or you won't use their names na lang.
Renante Nate It is up to the search engine if their names are tagged.
Sean Velchez wag ka namang maging masyadong mabait sa sarili mo renante, oa naman na purihin mo pa sarili mo.
eto ha, kung feeling mo exonerated ka dahil sinabi ni tope na dating aktibista yung schoolmate mo at naging gerilya mali ka.
kaya nga inimbento ...ang salitang DATI.FORMER.EX. para mag pagtatangi sa nakaraan at sa ngayon o sa darating pa. wala kang puntos dun tol im telling you. parang yung ibang katoliko na lumipat sainyo. DATI silang katoliko na naging iglesia. pero yung pinag aaralan sa katoliko na bibliya pinag aaralan din sa inyo. diba. elementary analogy sir... tsk tsk. and oh i am not giving my consent that you post this to any other blog. ipasa mo pa sa isafp.. . may sarili ding justice system sila eh.. gaya ninyo.
Renante Nate I save this on a blog because this would be a permanent record on how someone behaves and conducts himself with his choice of words, the faculty of reason, integrity and faith.
Sean Velchez if that is a threat, bring it on. let us know naman where you posted it, so we can visit naman.
anway, renante, personal sa aking ang pagkakapatay kay ambo dahil kaibigan ko sya. kaya pinipersonal ko ang pakikipag batuhan sayo ng kuro kuro d...ahil gusto kong pangalagaan ang alala ng kaibigan ko. higit pa riyan gusto ko pa ring makamit nya ang hustisya.
Renante Nate Mr Velchez,
Who told you that I should ask consent from anybody to post this conversation on blogs? THis is a public domain. Sana naman may konti ka ng kahihiyan sa sarili. Basahin mo nga ang mga naunang sinulat mo. Who initiated this discourse? Sinong una at laging nang-aakusa? Di ba ikaw?
Tapos ngayon sasabihin mong "pinepersonal mo ang batuhan ng kuro kuro" dahil sa iyong apat na taon ng yumaong kaibigan. Sino na ngayon ang lumalabas na walang bait sa sarili? Pwede ba naman iyon? You face a battle unprepared and overwhelmed by personal things. Paano kung may pasyente na kailangang gamutin, baka iba ang maibigay na gamot dahil naglalayag ang isip.
Wala naman kaming subject na psychology o kaya kahit psychiatric nursing sa Engineering pero alam namin na kapag nangingibabaw ang emosyon tulad ng poot, nawawala ang kakayahang mag-isip.
Bakit, hindi ba ito magandang subject case study for behavioral analysis?
Hustisya ba kamo? Sana alam mo na si Cristo pinatay din dahil sa mga walang kuwentang AKUSASYON. Sana manalamin na lang muna.